come from the Bible? The Founders were steeped in the Bible, although probably not as much as the regular folks of the time. The former spent more time studying law, English and European history, Greek and Roman history, philosophy and mythology than did Americans who were left out of the Framing.
Did Jesus support any particular constitution? Freedom of Religion is an extra-Biblical idea, certainly. What was the preferred mode of government in the Old Testament? It seems to me that God allowed Centralization for about the same reasons he gave the Hebrews food other than manna... and divorce.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009
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My best guess, based upon meagre knowledge, would be that "government" came from the priests and elders.
Think Imams and Ayatollahs and you shouldn't be too far from the truth.
1Sa 8:2 Now the name of his firstborn was Joel; and the name of his second, Abiah: they were judges in Beersheba.
1Sa 8:3 And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment.
1Sa 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
Isreal did not have centralized rulership. The people asked for a King.
They were lead by a prophet who judged them.
The priests only function at this time was to take care of the temple which was a very decoratated tent.
In a word; the Isrealites of this day had what Al would consider the optimum goverment, virtually none.
And I said that the constitution has a Christian bent.
It is a version of Ten Commandments for the Government.
Thou shall nots so to speak. Thou
Shall not interfere with religion.
Thou shall not interfere with freedom of speach.
Thou shall not interfere with the ownership of weapons.
Ect. ect..
They did not pre-suppose themselves as a God head and they did not pre-suppose Government as a god head. They also did not presuppose that the laws of men should be a god head either.
I shall say it this way. The law is not the be all end all that you chafe against so much Al.
You keep trying to put me in my place. Or, rather, to bring me back in line. My place isn't what you think it is.
But, back to the point, what do you believe government is?
Actually, I'd like further clarification of that last sentence, "The law is not the be all end all that you chafe against so much Al."
You want evidence that a two year old could digest I take it.
Look your self in the mirror and ask yourself where did your ideas come from.
You learned your ideas from the total of your exposure to other people to date and their stated ideas and then adjusted them according to how you think you would like to live.
Except there is a modifier in there somewhere. In your subconscious deep in the background. Like you have been hypnotized or something.
Like I keep saying it is impossible to explain for me. Maybe someone else has the words I don't.
In order for you to correctly judge whether or not Christianity had any effect on the authoring of the Constitution you should know the Bible much better. Memorize as much as you will and compare the best social results based on what you discern and see if you find room in the constitution for your self. It appears to me that you do not see room in the constitution for your self whereas I do see room for me. In fact I see room for every person no matter their belief.
Christinity does not negate anothers belief and true believers do not force belief. True believers know that whether a person chooses to believe or not is not their perview. They allow and tolerate, love and accept, help where they can (not will).
Where do you think that our national identity came from. Pagans? Not likely, but from the bible. I would be interested in what paganistic or non-christian nation these ideals came from.
Do you think that our national identity came from a selfish selfcentered paganistic or athiestic society previous to the U.S.?
I think that as much gibberish as this probably seems to you, you will find Gods handiwork all over the place in the constitution.
Not because it so obviously states it but because it so obvioulsy allows for it. God the Father Loves and cares for every man woman and child alive and this is obvious in the constitution and in the behivior of the men who could claim to be sons of God who wrote it and accepted it as the master document by which to succesfully creat and sustain an nation. A nation that has become arguably the greatest and most influential nation the world had seen to date.
You are educated and thinking and supposedly making every attempt at objective thought. But you negate way to much. Ultimately no man is a true pure scientist.
If you negate God or others belief in God you risk doing or causing what others who thought that the belief in god was just a tool to pry out of the people what they wanted and led their respective nations into hell on earth like Hitler.
Jesus says woe be unto those whom should cause a little one such as this to stumble.
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
Hitler was a Catholic I have been told and I believe he was. Someone made him to stumble from his belief.
There is no recovering one like you; who has gone forward and accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord, for the world. I remember the day you did Al and so does mom. Remember that day Al, meditate on it deeply, remember every thing you felt and thought. No man made you to go up, there was resistance in you to do so. That was you kicking and screaming so to speak .
You have not been the same since and the world will never know what you would have become if you hadn't.
In answer to the thought that I am trying to return you to your place.
That conjures a thought in me that maybe you think that I think you are a statue that belongs on a shelf somewhere.
Not.
I did just say that your salvation is not my perview.
If what Jesus said was true and I believe what He said is true and perfect, then all judgement regaurding you belongs to him, not me.
If You will remember over the last few years I have been saying that God is in absolute control. It is he who has put you in your place not me and though if I could I would move you out of your place and put you where I would have you I would.
Neat thing about it is I do not have to. I save my self the worry and trouble of doing so.
God knows exactly what he is doing with you and has a perfectly clear view of how you fit in to the big picture. I will never have that great a vision. No man nor group of men no matter how large or smart or informed will ever have that vision.
So no I am not trying to put in your place. That is an innacurate misnomer of a statement made by someone trying to describe the correction of a human. Objectivly I could not possibly put you in your place. But God can.
I was just over trying to comment on your blog, Ron, but it kept refreshing itself, or something. I'll try again later.
Btw, you're overusing "whom". Whenever it's the subject - the person doing the action described by the verb (who/whom is like a variable in that regard) - it should be "who."
But these are just asides. Apparently there is some context over there that I missed, so it's real hard to argue with your last post there.
Back to here: it does seem that greater centralization is ungodly. God couldn't work with kings very well.
I think I will do some studying of what the prophets had to say and see if it is consistently in keeping with the morality we were expected to obey.
I like to think along the lines of to whom it may concern, so in that direction, plus it adds that subliminal characteristic which helps it to stick in peoples mind, or craw to the overly criticle.
Not necessarily a concious habit but it does have that effect.
If they can't remember my name they can make fun of me becuase of my tipyc stuttering. And I do like making up new words and uses for them. Of course whom is not one of the more exciting things, but I really like the way that it is all written in the old English King James version.....suits me.
I love my bible.
There is your answer concerning somthing you want I think. I truly believe that we will be going back to the way it was in the days before King Saul, only on a world wide scale. There will be nations and Jesus will himself rule with a system of Saints and Judges. Thats my thought though not necessarily the truth for that day.
You have to admire the certainty that so many people derive from their beliefs!!
The quotations - starting with 1Sa (Samuel I?) - are so clear and the definitive etymology profound. I am glad that whatever the ancient Hebrew word may have been that it can translate to "judge". It avoids the question of "who appointed?", "why were they needed?" and thus-like. After all, times then were only a step from the Garden of Eden, huh!!
I suspect that the reality was more in the nature of the small communities of Papua; where leadership is provided by hereditary right, or just plain might, or the number of pigs that one owns, or the number of donut-shaped stones stacked outside your door. Not too dissimilar from what we have today in fact.
But that is enough. I feel another essay coming on...
It probably wasn't all that different, Prob.
As to the pagans who affected us, LibertyBob mentioned Iceland back in the Tom Paine post. I think they did a lot of things my way, and I don't think their example was completely unknown to the founders. There was also the constitution of the Iroquois League, right next door to the nascient US. I mentioned the Romans and the Greeks, whose ideas very directly affected the founders.
Montesqueue (that can't be right) didn't have anything nice to say about Christianity and was probably and atheist. And the Deists said, there is a god, but he's busy.
Oh! You're thinking that I deny the influence of Christianity in the founding. I'm sorry you think I'm that stupid.
My question here is, how much... no, that's impossible to answer. Give me some samples. And you have.
But feel free to keep going on the other debates. I still intend to defend atheism (not agnosticism) and anarchism.
I do not intend to bash any religion including athiesm just moronic idiots and their ideas who think that our government is based on a bias that does not allow for other beliefs.
Wrong.
Continued at my site because this became a whole nuther article.
Btw Al You finally succumbed to the guilt of having not been forth right with me concerning your true beliefs.
I'm ma going to be understandably angry for a while.
How about you try to understand how someone else might feel for once in your life? I'm done walking on eggshells to protect your volatile ego.
Flaming egos. Mwha. Firery tempermants need not be protected.
45 and you are just now getting away from feeling like you need to be verbally cautions.
Should have taken a clue from Sonja. Miss drama queen herself and blah all you wanted instead of bottling it up, but of course I speak to the choir now.
I might have even got a laugh out of you trying to pummel me back then. I think you may have found out the hard way I was a definative measure faster reflexivly that you.
Still am.
I'm pretty sure that you are one of the sources of my problems, and for that reason I should stop trying to deal with you on any kind of deep level until I figure that out with professional help. Somebody else is the source of yours. You told the story about Mom slapping the hell out of you before you were two. You said that inhibited your growth somehow.
I didn't want to believe that when you said it, but I believe it now. That's one of the things that creates a "false self," which is, maybe, a dumb name for a defensive shell (also an inadequate analogy) that becomes useless when the danger is over. Actually it becomes harmful.
There's a true self in you that you're protecting way too much.
I am definately not the source of your problems.
You were young enough that since I was 12 we spent most of our time apart, distant. I had little or no interaction with you or the rest of the family because I basically thought all of you were nuts. I didn't even want to talk to any of you. You all were an embarresment to me and still are.
I still think all of you are nuts.
I am the only one not in therapy or taking nut pills.
And finally for the last 30 plus years I have done my damdest to get as far away from all of you as possible.
If I were protecting myself I would be all concilatory and sugar coating and stuff. Not hanging it all out there like this. I ain't afraid to take this risk. I would do this to your face as well as on the internet. I ain't scared of nuthin.
You just wish I was hiding something like you have done for God knows how long.
I am also not o-fraid of others recriminations. I am not afraid of being imperfect. I grew out of that before I was out of junior high.
Mom never slapped me before I was 2 you just dreamt that up I bet or are desperate or worse your getting psycho and pathological.
Starsplash said...
I am definately not the source of your problems.
You were young enough that since I was 12 we spent most of our time apart, distant. I had little or no interaction with you or the rest of the family because I basically thought all of you were nuts. I didn't even want to talk to any of you. You all were an embarresment to me and still are.
I still think all of you are nuts.
So why do you live at Mom's house?
I am the only one not in therapy or taking nut pills.
You should.
And finally for the last 30 plus years I have done my damdest to get as far away from all of you as possible.
So, why do you live with Mom and Teresa and sponge off your wife's disability check?
If I were protecting myself I would be all concilatory and sugar coating and stuff. Not hanging it all out there like this. I ain't afraid to take this risk. I would do this to your face as well as on the internet. I ain't scared of nuthin.
You just wish I was hiding something like you have done for God knows how long.
Whatever.
I am also not o-fraid of others recriminations. I am not afraid of being imperfect. I grew out of that before I was out of junior high.
I haven't noticed the post where you explained what was up with what I just said. Oh, and you owe me $300.
Mom never slapped me before I was 2 you just dreamt that up I bet or are desperate or worse your getting psycho and pathological.
I thought that sounded like BS when you told me that.
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