Friday, June 12, 2009

Hey, it's morning, I've had a good breakfast

and time to recover from all that forgive and forget BS they preach in the AA meetings.

If there's a God (one who's worth worshipping), you can have faith that he'll do as you ask. Your anger shows a lack of faith and an impatience with God's methods. If there aren't any gods, then no one's listening.

And, btw, how did monotheism defeat polytheism? Or did it? You reason from creation to the Trinity; why not to polytheism or pantheism?


Starsplash said...

Christianity is the easiest religion in the world to join.
It is a free gift. The only requrement is none. No work to get into heaven. Just say the words and it becomes so.

Christianity reigns supreme in the worlds belief systems because there is a desire to be good and the knowledge that we men are not good even if by mens understanding we say "that guy is a good man".
And men reason with themselves that no matter how much he tries he will never be good enough.
Following Jesus offers people a way to Heaven without having to be good first.
It takes all of the work out of salvation.

Following Jesus also offers the easiest way in a continued forgiveness of our mistakes. Still no need to be perfect.

There are a whole lot of people who believe in God but give up on trying to please him or do what they inherently know is right for him because they are not perfect. Christianity says you don't have to be perfect. No Christian worth their salt will expect perfection.

Polytheism did not completely die off but most of the adherant nations were annihilated in wars with monotheistic nations/empires, which natuarlly propagated their beliefs as rights of conquerors.

This is of course a lame attempt at being objective which I am not
and I am also not saying everything that I have thought at this moment.

Storms coming in anyway and I am probably going to shut down before I get to mention everything I want to.

I think that panthiesm may not address the where is God question. That is if God is everything where is his mind or heart. God must have a mind or heart if he is God.

The bible has an answer for that as well.

Obviously talking to a rock is nuts especially cause it don't talk back and talking to the universe is nuts cause it won't talk back.

I will give a synapse of what the bible says God says about worshipping things.


The synapse of what we are supposed to do about it is (something I fail at miserably)

Nothing. Just explain our position as Christians

I will endeavor to caution people though. There is an avatar of exceeding great power assigned to stand up for Christians and you can not attack them with out butting heads with him.

Which ends my pathetic attemps at objectivity.

Storms here I definately gotta go.

Al said...

Agreed up to, "...and the knowledge that we men are not reason with themselves that no matter how much he tries he will never be good enough."

We're born ignorant; that's all. Good enough for what? Who says your not good enough?

Avatar? Like Krishna?

Starsplash said...

Avatar like Michael.

You said within your self you are not good enough. So you said to yourself one day I am not good enough for heaven.Probably decades ago by now.
Looking for God you found him not. Declaired there is no God which I think your lying about. You would not of started this argument if you weren't still troubled by the question.
My bible says that the Holy Spirit is the one troubling you.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

I'm saying that your subconcious is bothering you and you should not ignore it. Your guilt at turning your back to God will never go away.

I say that I am good enough for Gods work because he has made me perfect for his work that he wants me to accomplish. I don't have to be perfect which makes me very happy. It means that I can stumble and bumble around all I want through my life and I still ain't got to succeed. You might say that I am very successful because inspite of what others thought I have exceeded my expectations of me. I win. I am as perfect as I want to be. An engineer would say "close enough". Me Happy. Couldn't have done it with out God. Me Happy. Let sing it. Me Happy.

Al said...


The probligo said...

ATcherly Ron, you got me to thinking. After I read Al's quick muse toward pantheism that is. That's free as well. You are not even asked to contribute money!

Now there is something I could get into - anything and everything might be gods.

But hang on there a minute. That is starting to sound awfully like Bhuddism.

Run for the hills!!!!!

"The only requirement is none. No work to get into heaven. Just say the words and it becomes so."

So, Hitler could be in heaven if he said the right words just before he died? So could Stalin, and Hussein?

I think that I would prefer a religion that requires a modicum of effort to live a good and right life. I think that you will find, when it is your turn to face your god, that it is somewhat more difficult than "say the words" to qualify for your heaven.

You reduce your religion to the same level as the 72 virgins rumour spread as a criticism of Islam. In fact that particular little nicety was Valhalla as I recall and you had better speak to the Norse about that.

The probligo said...

Al, I had a real bad night last night. Not anything to do with you, or anything else in particular; just a plain ol’ toss’n’turn bad night.

It did give me a chance to run a wide range of topics through the ol probligo brain. Things ranging from that leaking tap, to when the lawn is going to get mown next, whether or not to build myself another Karasu or build a Cloud Tramp instead, to the things that you have been writing and the conflict between you and Ron.

And now I am going to jump right on in with both size 12s (that would be 14s in the US).

Al, you have always struck me as a straight guy, interesting to talk with through this media, some interesting ideas and the ability and desire to debate them with an ol bugger like me.

It occurred to me last night that I have been missing some important signals coming out of your corner. To his credit, I think that Ron has been a big part in wakening me to what is going on. His tirades are driven by proximity and the normal concern of a brother. I am so far detached in both relationship and distance that it has taken a bit to catch on to what is really happening.

The first thought that went through my head, the first realization, was that I can not fully appreciate what you are trying to deal with. It is not just the outside pressure from those close to you. I imagine that is the easy part. The inside pressure and stresses caused by your desire to overcome your alchoholism must be immense.

From that I kind of wandered through all manner of grandiose ideas and phraseology to try and express the ideas that I – naively – thought might help you find your way.

Rather than do that, the last three words really seem to be the problem. To “find your way”. Ron has offered some ideas, principally based upon his knowledge of you, your family circumstances, and where you have come from. I must bow and acknowledge that he is far better to do that than am I.

I want to add to his thoughts.

Whatever you believe, you must be as honest and as hard with yourself as you were the first time that you said “I am an alchoholic”. If you do not, then a great deal of your energy will be spent in chasing shadows.

Whatever you believe, you must follow that path with the same honesty and strength you needed the first time you said “I am an alchoholic”. If you do not, then you will waste the time of those who support and help you.

Whatever you believe, your family and friends should appreciate your honesty and dedication to those beliefs.
There is a thread through all of the things that you have said over the last couple of years. It is a thread to which I found the end as a result of meditating on Ron’s postings.

I am hearing a man who wants to believe in something. Whether it is atheism, Ayn Rand, Molyneux or Christianity or something else, you seem unable to decide.

Again, in my naivety, it seems so simple. But I also suspect that I am over-simplifying the immensity of the load you carry. The clue to the possibility of a solution is connected to the joy and happiness you expressed in the posts a while back when you wrote of the camping holidays with your family. There were other clues in the posts about your daughter. Those posts have been missing from your life for some while.

OK, size 14s are on; here I go…

Whatever you do, Al, it should not be in response to external pressures. You know what you need to do. You have completed at least the first step in admitting your alchoholism. Your wider family are still wanting to help, in any way that they can. You have to want to fight this disease; not just for the next ten minutes; not just for the next day or next week or next month. You have to want to fight this forever.

And I believe that you can.

You need to believe that you can.

The probligo said...

You have to want to fight this forever.

And I believe that you can.

You need to believe that you can.

Rather than seeking more external props and excuses, you need to start believing your own ability to beat this thing. Yes, you might think that is an oversimplification, that I don’t know what I am talking about. I am talking about not letting yourself down. Too easy as a solution? You can do it, Al.

You have beaten the first step. Don’t look down now, look up instead. Look to the path in front, the steps up the hill. What is the next step? Get through today clean. Then plan to get through tomorrow clean.

Is that easy? I bet that it is not. I bet that is a whole lot harder than I can ever imagine.

But then I also believe that you can be a better and stronger guy than I will ever be.

Al said...

Thank you for the encouragement.

Alcohol isn't the biggest thing I'm fighting. I never did really fight it, I just don't drink anymore. I talk about some of the poignant moments now and then.

I have held back an awful lot because I didn't want to hurt my mother or freak out my brother. Holding back things pisses me off. Basically I've been keeping myself in a box until they all die. Genetically, I don't have time to do that. And I might be pretty moth-eaten even if I outlive them all.

Stephen Covey and Dr. Phil both say, "Don't die with your song still in you."

It ain't no way to live, wishing everybody who might be hurt or disturbed by my song were dead. Maybe I should get a tattoo and a nose-ring.

That's why I'm seeing a shrink. And that's why I'm not interested in Ron's facile advice. I know him a lot better than he knows me.

Starsplash said...

You know me not Al. No man truly knows another not even his brother. No man can ever know another.

Probligo is right. You think I am driven by the same selfinterested motives.

What you are blind to is that I have sacrificed much much more than you can understand and you can never understand and until you do the same you will never understand why.

I get to because there is a life beyond this one and their my sacrifices mean something.

I am not an objective person personally but I will for the sake of argument make this apparent objective statement.

If there is no God and no afterlife then my unseen legacy will be one of giving my life that others may live and if mankind is to advance beyond it's current stattus then it will have to trancend its selfish selfinterested motives. I see my personal interests in if everyone around me is at peace with themselves then I can rest from my labors. No one will be making statues of me and I ask for no accolades. I don't even require money. My ideas live on. And that is good enough for me.

To make the toughest of steal you must put pressure on it. Lots of pressure.

To make the sharpest blade you must heat and beat and reheat. And then with the greatest of care sharpen it at just the right angle with the right number of strokes with the hone.

Probligo is right also. My God is that forgiving. If Hitler say's to God in the end God forgive me I thought I was doing the right thing thenm my God would and he would be saved.

We man have a terrible problem of wanting revenge evern after a person is dead.

Had I of died Alan would still have his problems and who would he blame then. Ultimaltly he would only have himself. Or he could be like that nut that went into the immigration office and shot it up.
Hating everyone and everything until he looses it in a fit of violent vengence.

AA is right Al you got to let go of your hate.

Your theripist should have at least told you that what you are begins in your child hood.

The last time I pissed you of directly was when you were 9.

I could have kicked your ass for your response then. I chose not to.
I forgave you then and let alone.

You have never been in a position to get even; pray tell you never find your self in a position with the mind and attitude too. No matter which way you run that scenario it goes badly for you. The opposite of your primary philosphy. Selfish self interest.

Christians are the opposite of you al. Selfless selfinterest. To get what you want you have to give.
Pay it forward. What could it hurt. Why not spread some good. It always comes back to you when you least expect it.

You built your whole life around that inner hatred and spread it like a plague.

You talked nice but inside you are a pharisee, a ravening wolf and obviously still are.

Al said...

You forgave me? You realized that you had things to lose if you didn't stop beating me up. You weren't vulnerable to me, but your models were.

Yes, it all starts in childhood and you terrorized my existence from the time I had to move into your room until I smashed your model. Don't be talkin' like you were wise and magnanimous. And parents stop spanking their children at the same point. Then they turn to other methods of persuasion.

And there are other things I can bring up, too, that are all your fault. You've obviously forgiven yourself, but you haven't asked anyone else to forgive you for them, have you?

Starsplash said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Starsplash said...

So ya Damaged my models. Woop de doo.

I grew out of them too.
You got even with me by doing something to my models? Mwhahahahah. Your forgiven. Chuckle.I had no clue. I don't even remember there being much askew with them.

I was no good at them anyway. They were always a mess of glue and the what little paint I may have put on them was pathetic. I knew that. I got rid of them by the time I was 15. I may be imagining this but I do think I punched you in the shoulder once for playing with one of them.

Ultimately they weren't the most important thing in my life. Before I got saved going to OK and swimming were the things I thought about all the time.After I got saved not much changed I added God, sports, and girls, and going to Ok. These things were important to me. Do you see your self in there?

I got nuthin to loose there Al. Remember when you used to get mad and I tole you to go ahead and hit me you would just hurt yourself. Well it's the same circumstance today. Go ahead get it all out. It's not going to hurt me, and you will just hurt yourself.

Beat you up? why don't you explain that one or have you conjured up bloody noses, black eyes and broken bones or is it that your so desperate for attention that your playing the sympathy card by saying things in such a way that peoples imaginations can't help but run wild. You know what mom use to say after you went crying to her. She would say show me your bruises. How many did you have? Huh baby brother? How many. I never beat you up. Ever. In fact only one person in the whole wide world has ever felt a full power full speed punch from me.

Nope. Guess you weren't that important to me. I guess I cared about you but, hm I guess I took it for granted that you were just there. I guess you didn't mean much to me then. Still don't mean much to me, your just another human being for me to care for.

Tell you what. If you become a homeless bum I happen across, I will stop for you and give you a 5 or something. You know like I did the other day when we went to Walmart together.

Dja ever think Al that it may be your drug and alcohol damaged brain talking here.That your memories may not be reliable, and that your retaining the anger and need to get even in vestige is pretty much all you have left to conquer in yourself.

I am sorry that you are exhibiting hatred today. I am sorry that the seeds for you hatred are rooted in my childhood picking on you. I feel sorry that I picked you as a kid.
I feel sorry for you.

Is there anything else you want to bring up. Come on little baby lets see what you got. I got nuthin to loose and you can't do anything or say anything that I won't have an answer for. Here is the brink, the edge of the cliff. Will you take that chance and confront me directly or take the ch--s-t cowardly way out. Hm? Since this is in essence public, just say it or do you have nuthin but delusions and lies. Are you too proud t' let go and forgive so that you can live?

Starsplash said...


Man up boy! Stop trying to protect me cause you ain't, it has been the other way around. I been protecting you. Stop avoiding the inevitable. I believe I know what it is anyway.

I have never said anything against you ever; all of my life directly, until these last few weeks Al. I have always admired you and bragged on you. I was very proud of you. It is a shame we have to do this in public. I suppose that we did not 13 years ago when I was going around the family begging forgiveness for my ills as a youth and childhood, you were not ready yet nor in a place to be forgiving or too drunk to care. For whatever reason it never came up.

You got the last right in that I forgave myself. I guess that bugs you most of all. That I could forgive and forget my own childish foolishness even if I wasn't responsible for them because I was a child.

Are you having a midlife crisis, (gasp)? Ain't the great Al after all, ain't accomplished nuthin in life yet. No legacy for that great mind of yours. What a waste. Blaming everything and everybody you can think of for any ill, perceived or otherwise. Those days are gone and you can't do anything about them accept deal with them and go on. Anything else just ends up an indulgence in self pity, which would be ok if you recognized it for what it was.
Retrospective introspection.

Get it?

Al said...

Had I of died Alan would still have his problems and who would he blame then.

I don't need you there to deal with my problems. What I needed back then, I'm not going to get. I'm telling you that you are shouting in my ear what I already know. I told you already that it's my problem to deal with. You have your own. Deal with them.

The method is: find the source of your problems (and, despite your self-aggrandizement, you are not all of them, you're just the only one I'm talking to), feel the emotions you squelched the first time around, mourn and go do what's right.

All this happened because I thought I was smarter than the method.

I haven't run into anybody knowledgeable who advise forgiving people who a. don't ask for it and b. don't change.

Starsplash said...

The forgiving you speak of does not and is not required to be a two way.
You are allowed to forgive unilaterlaly.
I have unilateraly forgiven you every for the unseen and hidden things you have said and done to me. I require no change in you.

The worlds method is forgive when asked.
Gods method is just forgive because I just forgive.

You made a statement:
"If there's a God (one who's worth worshipping), you can have faith that he'll do as you ask. Your anger shows a lack of faith and an impatience with God's methods. If there aren't any gods, then no one's listening."

There is a point that no dictionary or incylopedia I have looked at mentions; and that is that If there is a God who created all that is, then they forget to mention that he has a plan and everthing works twards that plan. If what you want doesn't fit tht plan he is not going to do it or give it. If you ask outside that plan it will not happen. Even if it would be good for mankind.
He is not going to do what you ask just because you have good motives.
And in the case of revenge.....answers the same. you don't get revenge just because you want it, it is also Abba's(Good Father) to give out..
You also forget the forgiving and good nature of God.

In other words you have power over another person inderectly by God if it doesn't fit his will and plan. God has a plan for everyone and to men (me included it would be a cruelty to do and thusly we think it somewhat cruel).
You have to take the attitude of not blaming God.

I don't blame God.
Because of this I get to know God.
In all of my imperfections falacies and sins I get the honor and blessing of knowing God. He trancends everything that man has conjured in his mind concerning God. He is truly my Abba Father.