Wednesday, June 10, 2009

Oh, Man! What a great article!

Wilt Alston's Do You Really Want Freedom, Or Are You Just Kidding Yourself?, about freeing yourself contains this bit (I think I'll put in his links):
...I came across a fascinating post from a woman who “escaped” from her Amish sect. In the comments of response to her story one can find, among several interesting musings, a discussion of this supposedly Biblically-derived phrase which is generally used to justify physical punishment of children. The fascinating tidbit was this: The Bible doesn’t actually contain that phrase. The sentiment is apparently a paraphrase of Proverbs 13:24, which says:
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

While I’m certainly no Biblical scholar, it seems to me a bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy to use that single verse as a justification for physical abuse. Back on Ferriss’s blog, a poster simply shown as “Betsy” offered what I believe is the most humane (and libertarian) translation of that verse:
“Spare the rod and spoil the child” is actually analogous to the rod of the shepherd. It’s really a beautiful, sentimental teaching that has been totally perverted by some.

The poster went on:
A good shepherd never beats the sheep, but uses the rod to guide them with a gentle touch. That this homily should justify child abuse is the exact opposite of its intended meaning, which is “by failing to guide your child with love and instilling discipline (not punishment) in a consistent and gentle way, you ruin the child’s chances of successfully functioning in relationships and society as a whole.”

Indeed! This sentiment seems to resonate with the non-aggression axiom. How can the thugs with whom so many of us deal claim to be protecting anyone from anything? (They certainly aren’t gently guiding anyone, either.)

I think everybody who knows me would find it incomprehensible that I'd convert to this philosophy, but this guy's got me pegged. Nietzsche's "What does not kill us, makes us stonger" has been more my style... S**t! It's been pretty much my motto until about a month ago.

Once again, let me say that since my older daughter was born I've been trying to figure out how to make the world the kind of place she'd be happy in. I think Alston and Molyneux and Alice Miller have the answer: knock it off with the humiliating!


Starsplash said...

I would like to see how that is recieved, the guiding your child with a stick thing that is. The verse is meant to be taken literally not figuratively.

It means verbally correct often but if all else fails wup em.

If you ain't a christian then don't, the application still applies acrost the board.

And delving into Christian beliefs when you are rejectiong Christianity by your own proclamation you ain't gonna know any way. Ya ain't going to learn it by lying about it or deceiving others either. The only way that you learn about any thing is to really believe it or at least accept that others really believe it and have a benevolent attitude twards it. Any thing else falls under the heading of having angst against whatever before you know anything about it.

Accepting any information from anyone who actually secretely (not openly) is accepting at best twisted views.

I am saying you are an anti-christian. A christain hater Al.
A hate monger of the worst and most dangerous kind. The kind that dredges up hate in others who may not be morally strong enough to resist the temptation to do evil to others.

Enjoy the rep Al

God will this nation ever learn. What a bunch of morons.

T. F. Stern said...

From the Doctrine and Covenants, section 121

No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

The probligo said...

Ron, here in NZ a bunch of well-meaning CHRISTIANS succeeded in getting the Crimes Act changed.

The old defence of "appropriate discipline of a child" is no longer a defence in Court. If you were to discipline your child, you run the risk (as one guy found out recently when he clipped the ear of his 5 y-o in public) of your day in Court charged with assault.

Me? An atheist? I believe that there is a need for children to learn that actions can, no WILL bring consequences. If the action is a good, then the consequence is a good.

Starsplash said...

This is not New Zealand Prob...

I'll always do good to anyone but I will not stomach the twisting of my Constitution.

I maintain my position. Athiesim is the most dangerous religion on earth. Prove me wrong. I lay this challenge out there for you.

T.F. Defending my brother when he has knowlingly decieved not just me but his own mother for
decades is to enable him.

Al said...

Good, Ron, so I don't have to worry about your opinion. All you've got is bullying. Take that away and you're nothing.

The probligo said...

Ron, atheism is NOT a religion, not as far as I am concerned.

It is, from my point of view a total absence of religion

So, you can lump into that category every sociopath that ever lived because (by definition) they have no conscience, they are not socialised, they are without any morals. They might state they are Christian, and even talk with God every night, but who can believe the word of a sociopath?

Just remember, when you do all of that arbitrary generalisation, the vast majority of atheists probably are as moral as your everyday Christian.

And am I glad that NZ is not the US...!!! Enjoy your beer this evening.

Starsplash said...

Not accepting my challenge. Good I win.

30 million slaughtered in the name of atheism untold millions more hidden in the morass of WWII and millions dying in soviet concentration camps in the greatest atheistic nation the earth has ever produced under Stalin and Lenin.

You people are never going to live that down.
Atheism the most dangerous belief on earth.
The only bullying I see here is you Al thinking to intellectually bully. The wanna be great objectivist thinker. Not Objective at all. MWHA!

Starsplash said...


I know the vast majority of athiest are decent moral people this is not aimed at you nor those who are at peace with there lot. Just the ones like Al who have probably stupidly and unknowingly been promulgating what they think could be peacful but does/will and can only end up in national violence. The very antithesis of what they say they are trying to get.
Plus you got the personal issue of lying which as you well know I say is the primary problem in this country today.

His last statement is a classic attempt to defer the argument which is cowardly.

What makes you think I am a
drinker. Al is the drunk or ex-drunk not me. And He learned that completely on his own.

Ultimately Al so much as admits that he is a boderline enemy of the state when he says he does not favor the Constitution and says he supports anarchy.

It is one thing to be a dummy about it and make wrong decisions because of ignorance but Al has very few excuses. He is smart learned, and continues to seek out knowledge but that does not change the fact that I must clang the alarm bell because of him. Right now he gets lumped in with right wing terrorists skin heads and bigots of all kinds. I will make sure of that.

Al said...

It's possible that we're both projecting, Ron, but I'm quite sure that you are. I'm quite willing to stand up to you.

Communism and fascism do not equal atheism. It does appear that communism - at least Marxism - was an attempt to apply Christian morality while dumping God, and pretending that he (Marx) was being scientific. The Black Book of Communism attributes 100 Million deaths to that error. Of course, communism predates Marx, but the effort to have Christianity without Christ seems to have motivated most of the ones I've looked at. There were also attempts to found Christian communist communities, but none of them lasted very long. They do appear to have been more peaceful than "Scientific Socialism."

One of my favorite movies is "Enemy of the State" with Will Smith, and Justin Raimondo's biography of the great Murray Rothbard is called "An Enemy of The State." You place me in illustrious company.

There are actually better ways win converts than verbally assaulting people. Or are you "the evil man for the evil day."

Starsplash said...

Or am I a part of he who stands for the "children" of his people Daniel 12:1. My name is not Miachel but I wish sometimes it was. Or a part of the poeple who stand for this nation specifically.
It is not an evil to stand for this Constitution. I swore and I meant it that if needs be I would give my life for it and I mean it even until the end of my life. But I will not taint it by doing some crazy nutbag thing like individuals who have in the past or may in the future. I am positive that the best way to protect it for now is to exorcize my rights as specifically stated in it.

Rightly said.

100 million is a much larger estimation than I had ever heard. 30 million dead was enough to make me extroadinarily angry. Fighting mad literally.

If there is a good side to athiesm it is exemplified by Probligo.

I will reiterate that Christians are most congenial. But as with most beliefs there is a small percentage (usually 1% to 2%) who are total asses and reject openly other people for their beliefs. Just because I am angry at athiesm for twisting and turning the constitution to their ends does not mean that I reject them as people.
I have met and liked and had some good debates with athiests.

I am not trying to win converts. I am not out too break you 'just' the evil that gets a grip on you. I know that it is broken when they come to a place where the realize that Love is the answer. It is the only answer. People get hard hearted and it takes a lot of pounding with a very big hammer to break down the walls of a persons heart to let the love that is truly inside out, that it may shine and the true beauty that a person really is can grow. I have always had a gift of seeing the good in people and the hard shell around that good. In your case you were like the fruit of the black walnut tree in the moms back yard. A soft poisonous bitter outer fruit surrounding a shell that has to be put in a fire in order to break the shell. The fruit is gone and the outer shell is cracking and the knowledge that love is the answer peeks out. It is still a mean world. It hasn't changed. I have all of the people in our family praying for you cause we know you are saved and that God is in there with you.

The best I hope to achive when I get like this is (and this is a concious effort) to play brinkmanship, whith a twist. I will go all the way to M.A.D. (mutual assured destruction). It never fails if a person is able to speak from a position of absolutes.

It makes people think and rethink thier position. From this position I do fail to be able to explain it fully, perfectly or completely. I must say that at that point God comes into play, I have no other explanation as to why people come to a cooler more reasonable mind set. The most important thing I am after is for you to have a happier life even if it means the sacrfice of our relationship which would sadden me. But my consolation would be knowing that you are at peace. I could press on believing that God made something good come from my foolishness.

Marx may very well have tried to knowling apply Christian principles to an ideal, If not conciously then because he was so much exposed. He probably saw all the nice people but was confused byt the fact that there was no apparent connection as to how society managed to function in such apparent chaos. I think that Marx thought that things would be much better if mankind was working together like a bunch of ants.

Which of course is why people hate communism. We ain't ants.

Hitler also was trying to apply Christian principles but in a more vague way. He was not so much trying to take away a persons individual identity as usher in his vision of the third kingdom or reign.

We know how that worked out.

Al said...

I mentioned a movie I bought about the Nazis a while back. They played video and audio of Hitler, Goebbels and other high ranking Nazis explicitly proclaiming the goal of stamping out individuality.

Starsplash said...

That may be so but my own personal philosophy is that what they do trumps what they say.

I see no differentiation pre Hiltler to pre war on into the war years in German social behavior.

They may have talked about it but did little openly to change the overall German Social behavior.

The probligo said...

Good grief, Ron. And people find my logic difficult to follow...

Can't a man wish another an enjoyable end to the day with a quiet beer on a summer's eve?

I so do. And neither my doctor, nor my wife, thinks I have a drinking problem.

Oh, and thanks for the very half-hearted and grudging compliment.

Al said...

What's your source for that, Ron?

Starsplash said...

Cool thing about freedom of speach and thought. I get to be my own source.

And thank for all the years of the snide subliminal insults you thought you were making that I completely ignored knowing that you were just making them out of ignorance.

You seriously challenged my ability to forgive and forget.

Starsplash said...

Sorry Prob. I am still somewhat po'd about Al thinking he would have freaked me because he had decided that without imperical evidence that there was no God.

Had he told me of his doubts when he first came to that conclusion decades ago I would have just shrugged my shoulders.

I am not perfect in the having a beer thing but I really don't drink. Much. Like 1 or 2 about every 5 years now.

As far as compliments. I never ever give out a compliment unless I unequivocally believe it so. Plus I ma nearly completely singling out Al.

So the halfhearted grudge part is more like reluctant. I gave it inspite of my pissy mood.

The probligo said...

Yeah Ron, well I guess that it is no surprise that I agree with Al on the first point; well, I am prepared to go one step further and submit that the empirical evidence for the existence of a god does not exist. But that is not open for debate here. Take a look on my page if you want...

The probligo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Starsplash said...

This is not your fight prob. It is mine. Al started it and he will tell you I never back down. Ever.

Al said...

Projection again, Ron. I've thought you were wrong lots of times and I generally kept my mouth shut. Primarily because I believe you have the right to live your own way. I have a tendency to like people "with a bite to 'em" from growing up with you.

Tomorrow... Hell! It's today already! I'll give you guys the same spiritual history that I gave my shrink. Meanwhile, Prob's latest is worth reading.

Starsplash said...

Explain projection for me as you understand it Al.