Thursday, July 09, 2009

Yeah, I've heard that one too...

[This is a fun site]
You can find many believers who will say, "The reason why scientific experiments fail to detect God is because God must remain hidden. He does not answer prayers if he knows that he will be detected."

In order to see the truth, you need to accept that this explanation is silly. If God must remain hidden, then he cannot answer any prayers. Any "answered prayer" would expose God.

The whole notion that "God" must remain "hidden" is a total cross-threading of religious doctrine. On the one hand, believers will say that "God wrote the Bible, God incarnated himself and died on the cross for us, and God answers millions of prayers on earth every day." Then in the next breath they will say, "God must remain hidden." God obviously cannot "remain hidden" and "incarnate himself." These two items are mutually exclusive. Therefore, the explanation that "God must remain hidden" is impossible. As soon as you accept how impossible it is, you can begin to see see that God is imaginary.


Starsplash said...

Luk 21:25 AndG2532 there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

T. F. Stern said...

The nice thing about being LDS is my testimony that God has a body of flesh and bone as does His Son, Jesus Christ. This is comforting since we, all of us, are made in the image of God. The Holy Spirit does not have a body otherwise He could not reside with each of us. Joseph Smith Jr. saw both the Father and the Son and conversed with them. A few other mortals have spoken face to face with both God and His Son face to face; Adam and Eve come to mind.

Al said...

Have you ever seen the movie Cape Fear, Ron?

Starsplash said...

Nope. Ain't seen the movie. As to why Christian who some are saying that God must remain unseen, I don't buy that. He could come out from hiding except for this.

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

It all goes back to, "it's in the plan". It is his way to cull his and only his from this world.

Al said...

Because God create humans so he can torture them in Hell for eternity. Not all, just most.

Starsplash said...

I guess so. Don't you just wish that when panning for gold it was all just gold. But then what would be the value in that.
Again I didn't make the plan I just live it.
Mar 4:5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
Mar 4:6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

Al said...

I just heard a guy say that Humans are actually a by-product of God's desire to create black holes. There are a lot more of them than there are humans and they have much more effect on the universe than we do.

Oh, that was in Stef's podcast #332.

Starsplash said...

I think that nuts were given to mankind for mans enjoyment.

The probligo said...

All will be revealed when the CERN experiments finally show the existence of the Higgs Boson; called by some "The God Particle".

Starsplash said...

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Interesting thoughts concerning the construction of the earth.

The probligo said...

Isn't it amazing how one book can provide apt words for any and every event and debate.

I wonder what the book says about ultra-covert sections of the CIA? There will probably be something there...

Just like Nostradamus.

Al said...

Yeah. See if you can make sense of the next three verses:

38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

What the heck, make it seven:

38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
38:10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
38:11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

The probligo said...

"...And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars ...

So THAT's where the idea of spending a hot afternoon with good company and a cold beer or three by the beach came from!

:) :D

Starsplash said...

I see you two have fallen to scoffing.

I thought this was about Bosons. Where do you think that Einstein got his main ideas from. Hmmmm?

You know unlike some of the imaginary crap that you people spout(athiests), the bible is chock full of extrodinary physical principles, many now proven and some yet to be proved. Scoffers have a very difficult time seeing it. Al whats your IQ? You told me once it was 151, and yet you cannot see the tease from God to discover? OR....or in your pathetic case (there is no God perspective) Maybe the ancients knew something you godless heathens didn't. You two are the same type of people that scoffed at Columbus. Just smart enough to be stupid.

I said this thirteen years ago. The answer is in the light. Now what is the question? Is this Jeapardy or Johnny Carsons, Karnac?
You two are smart I have no doubt, but wise??? Nope,,,, you do not yet know what it means, "let him who would be wise be as a fool".

Pro 24:9 The thoughtH2154 of foolishnessH200 is sin:H2403 and the scornerH3887 is an abomination
H8441 to men.H120
Pro 19:3 The foolishnessH200 of manH120 pervertethH5557 his way:H1870 and his heartH3820 frettethH2196 againstH5921 the LORD.H3068

Now why don't you two geniuses go back and look at those verses in Job in a new light.

Al said...

If I'd been there to vote on what books to include in the Bible, I wouldn't have included Job.

The probligo said...

Ron, if you read any scientist worthy of the name they will confirm that real science is 5% inspriation and 95% perspiration.

I credit Einstein with applying a good bit of the latter to his ideas.

The inspiration? Just that, nothing else. Just hard work, thinking outside of the accepted paradigms of existing knowledge.

The probligo said...

As for "scoffing"? Here in NZ that would be generally taken as meaning finishing off a good and large meal very quickly. Only our cat surpassess a good scoffing, with an art that daughter called "inhaling". :)

However, I do understand what you are getting at.

Why should I scoff at what you are saying? It is unnecessary. I was merely illustrating the point that given the words, out of context (as most who quote at length from The Bible seem to do), then you can make just about anything out of them that you wish.

That is not scoffing at The Bible.

It could be at your use of it, but I will let you decide.

Perhaps Ron, your ideas might be worth a lot more if you were to debate from the context of your own thoughts and experience, rather than regurgitating those of a 3000 year old Semite who (if I recall the story right) had a fairly large chip on his shoulder.

Starsplash said...

Probligo. I do believe that Einstien got his inspiration from the old testament and Job plays a very large part of where the Bible mentions much of the things that we today take for granted. Such as:

Job 38:19 WhereH335 H2088 is the..... way where light dwelleth?...... and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon of the earth....., and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tentH168 to dwell in:

How about the unproven graviton. A therotical partical with attraction properties only which because of it's unlimited range of attraction must also me massless.

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and.... hangeth the earth upon nothing.....

With out men of God believing these verses Men of God and believers in God would not have discovered speed of light.
And if I were a bettin man I would say that Columbus would not have made the bold declaration that the earth was round, had he not of read Isaiah and just believed it.

But the real question is why say circle instead of the usual flat earth principle four corners? Btw I know that you have seen a global map pealed off of the sphere. I saw a few. Whats the deal with those points? I think I'll call those corners.

You want to make the next great discovery. Go to the bible and look for the ''I wonder why He said that just that way'' and meditate on how that would look in this universe. Then do the math.
If you can.

Again I say this. The universe is losing mass and cannot relapse.

I have read plenty of scientists work. Asimov and C.S.Louis in particular. They had a great way of explaining in lay terms how they thought it all worked out. As far as my theory about the Universe splitting apart because. That one is all mine.

The probligo said...

Interesting choices, Ron, especially seeing that Asimov was a bio-chemist who to the very best of my knowledge did very little if any research and C.S. Lewis (please get the spelling right!) was a linguist.

If you want to read science seriously, then I suggest that you sit down and read something, anything, like Scientific American, Nature and other similar publications. Or you might enjoy reading Hofstatder's "Eternal Gold Braid" or a book titled "The Dancing Wu-Li Masters" for variety though neither are strictly science.

Asimov, and his science fiction; Lewis... now that is appropriate... :D :D

Starsplash said...

Oh, sorry did I not tell you that those magazines are some of my favorites. Also other mags like Pop.sci. and of course there is the Pop. Mechanics and others more geared twards enginering.

My spelling sucks and I don't care.

The mag. Nature blows so I don't read it but have.

While I worked in the health field I had access to Medical thesis and med. journals which I read as well.

I have always been facinated with all things new, of course always interpreting the info from the perspective of the bible. I have read voracioously for 40 years and I ain't stopped yet.

I have no use for pop philosophy nor soap or other phisphical mumbo jumbo.

But lest you denigrate Sci. fi., they have been an inspiration for the current levels of technology that we enjoy today and the early writers all enjoyed a serious level of understanding and education of physics and astronomy. Better yet the ability to explain many concepts in lay terms that millions could comprehend.

Again scoff not. I Before I read Einsteins stuff I read everything from Anne McAffery to Heinlin. It helped me to understand and later in college grasp math and make it a part of me.

Astronomy also facinates me.

Now The bible is the source of the foundations of my beliefs.

Now lest you think that I think I am deluded and think I am a scientist think again. I do not. If we left the applications of discovery to scientists alone we would have nothing but a poverty stricken world.

My true speciality is the application of discoveries. I only have to understand the science enough to work it. I am aso very good at extrapolating results. Nearly all results.

Philosophy is a luxury not a necessity.