Saturday, May 23, 2009

Tipping my hand

His basic point in the title is absolutely true. I gave up atheism before because...when you proclaim yourself an atheist, you suddenly discover that all those people you thought were godless heathens before turn out to be devout Christians, who will dismiss everything you say thereafter. It was too lonely for me.


Starsplash said...

I don't know where this guy got his information concerning what the Bible says but he is full of s--- about what it says.

Nowhere does it say that raping under any cercumstance is allowed. It is not even infered.

It is totally absurd.

That s--- is in the Koran.

Al said...

He's talking about arranged marriages to children. And I'll have to go back and look at what the Israelites were commanded to do when they entered Israel after Moses' death.

By the way, here's something to think about: the guy who said, "Spare the rod, spoil the child"? How'd his kids turn out?

Starsplash said...

Repost at my site

The probligo said...

Starsplash, anyone who criticises the Bible as "justification" for atheism is not (in my world) a "true" atheist. Neither would I apply the term to anyone who criticises the principles of any other religion. But that is just the thoughts of one in the several billions who inhabit this planet at any one time.

Every religion is no more than an organised (and to some extent, imposed) system of beliefs.

"Atheism" in the truest sense of the word is "a-the(os)-ism" - having no god. It is (in my mind) more akin to religious anarchy rather than having a "specific system of non-belief"; something that many many of the internet "atheists" are trying to avoid. For some reason they seem to think that "a-theism" is something which must be believed, rather than a total lack of belief.

Al, your belief - whatever that might be - should not be "difficult" or "lonely". It is personal to you, whatever it may be that you believe.

I am comfortable with my own. My own mortality is guaranteed as a finality. My hereafter is a 50/50 chance (like the existance of intelligent alien life) that no one has been able to plumb to my satisfaction, or to better my present lack of belief.

I would not promote my belief as something you should believe.

Starsplash said...


My beef is that the guy makes claims about what Christianity is when he obviously has no clue in which the idiot should just sit down and shut up or in his cas he should just shut up.

Outside of no-god I don't have anything to say about athiest's and thier beliefs unless they want to start telling me what I am or what I support or what I believe which is presumptuous at its extremety.

I could write a book on the things I see wrong with atheism after decades of plain old observation of atheists.

T. F. Stern said...

Sounds like somebody needs a hug...

The probligo said...

TF, right!

Starsplash, one good ol' Kiwi atheist bearhug comin your way!

Starsplash said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Starsplash said...

Another BTW.
Just because eternity is invisible and immeasurable does not mean that it does not exist. Just because this universe will pass and it eventually will; nearly every one agrees on this, then what?

There is an existance beyond this universe.

What is that?

Starsplash said...

Chuckle, you are right. I shouldn't get so combative over this.
I'll accept the hug.

Al said...

"There is an existence beyond this Universe."

That is an assumption.

The probligo said...

Al, I have to agree with Ron. Not in the way that he might expect, but in line with some of his other thoughts on multiple universes.

Mathematically it is possible to prove the existence of quite a number (I think the current count is over 30) different dimensions. In any of those dimensions it is arguable that other universes could exist. The probabilities are as unfathomable as the nature of the various dimensions.

But then, think of this - one of my favourite mentats...

Astronomers can "look back in time" by examining objects that are so far away that it has taken light billions of years to arrive... Think too of the nature of "space" as outlined in Einstein's Special Relativity - and in particular the ideas of curvature of space, and the universe limit. Now, how do we (and the astronomers for that matter) know that what they see from 10 million, 100 million, 1 billion years ago are not the same object seen "around the curve of space/time"? In other words, will astronomers in 1 billion years time be able to see a nondescript little planet orbiting a humble little star in the remote corner of a galaxy, and on that planet a group of people with new (ancient) and powerful (humbly so) technologies trying (in vain) to look up their own backsides.

And Ron, I have "been to church" - including a Catholic Funeral Mass, my step-mother's ordination as a Minister in the Anglican Church, my fathers second wedding, my own wedding for that matter. I have even had someone try to "convert" me. I was also thrown out of Sunday School at the age of 9 for asking too many hard questions. Am I a Christian?

Starsplash said...

Wow Bob!

I would have to watch a video of you in a natural setting but just to judge from you "behivior and mannerisms" in the way you write you also exibit the traits of a christian.
I am loathe to say with out some visual referance. I take the cues from watching people and taking snanpshots so to speak with my mind revueing them later. Some people to me are obvious. More importantly I can also hear it in their voice. I must also ask if you have ever in any of your church goings asked Jesus to save you.
If you have ever said the words then I can only say that; even though you may have turned your back on Jesus you are better off than a person who who goes to church but does the rotten things that everyone associates the crap christians with. In other words the butthole Christians are making Christianity look bad to the unsaved.
I have over the years of my blog done everything to tear down mainly the crazy Christians notion that the voice they hear ain't God.
That super warm fuzzy feeling you get that overpowers you like the best present you ever had associated with the good that you do is the love of God washing over you.
Of course people explain away this as hormones or something else but never the less for some reason people who experience this with the good deeds they do live longer and are happier.
As far as proof of God. Like I say how in the world am I going to prove a supposed being with the magnitued of power as to be unlimited in nature and abilities as I and other Christians claim that he is. It is ultimately impossible for us to do unless he ordains it for us and empowers us too. If you took it upon youself to seek such a person I am sure that you would find one though I do not personally know of man or woman who would say near instantly grow a man's withered arm back. I have seen a lot of faith healers do what may have just been cheap parlor tricks. This doesn't change my belief that it could happen or in the future it would happen. I do believe that anything is possible.
Of course this is truly specualtive on my part neariing the insane aspect of my faith and where a person could loose their mind if they don't cling to reality such as I can't walk through walls or fly (Wish I could do both)that some end up caught in.

I think it best that I and others continue to seek and persue after a greater appreciation and love of the Almighty. Not by the way according to the conventional wisdom that many modern day christians say but by doing exactly what Jesus said I should do.

Most modern day Christians have taken on the idea that organizational aspects of worship and work's are the be all end all of God's work totally ignoring the roots of Christianity the uninitiated and unedecuated were going out boldly in ones and two's to preach. Must have been a wildly chaotic in which the educated lost there minds and killed many.

This is a long rambling way off me saying you are saved or not when a short I dunno would have probably done.

Starsplash said...


Actually I infer it as a continuation of reality.

The universe ends and leaves a blank hole? I am actually talking of the blank spot being there as a continuation of reality.
Isn't what I think about it, just an extrapolation of a spur of the moment visualization of say a big collapse scenario. If there were to be a rebirth of say another universe then there is the space for it to explode into. Ergo another dimension. A heaven I will call it.

The probligo said...

Ron, there is a lot in what you say that I agree with. As far as my belief is concerned, the "criticism" of Christianity is of little consequence; true or not. A good part of what you have said is the major reason behind my own path.

Have I been "saved"? Well that depends upon definition. I was baptised by my parents way before I even knew what was going on. I have never - to my living knowledge - ever consciously adopted or acknowledged the Christian creed. Both our kids were baptised, for my part on the basis that it does no harm, but neither has ever attended church as a worshipper to my knowledge.

At that point you can get into the "nature vs nurture" argument if you want.

I just stop and acknowledge that I will always be a work in progress; where ever I might end up.

Starsplash said...

Your not worring about whether or not you are saved is fine with me and in my book you do not have to be saved to be liked by me and so it is with so many other Christians.
In fact it is a serious problem when people try to become exclusionary on a social level because someone is this or that belief or religion.
I am biased for sure about social behavior of this nation because of my belief but then again there isn't one single person who thought to tell another what they thought should be done who isn't biased by their own belief.

I am also glad that you are at ease with your own beliefs, and comfortable around others of different ideologies.

Btw Al posted a link to my repost at freeradio and whooee they are verbally blasting away at me to which I give the ol. Mwa!

I guess they didn't like me saying they were full of ----.

Al said...

I was afraid you'd see that.

Starsplash said...

heh heh heh heh heh! Don't worry about it Al, I been looking for a good internet brawl. Ain't had it out with an athiest for 3 or four years. I ain't lost one yet.
That salty tongue I inherited from dad comes in mighty handy. They don't know what they are in for.
Get out the popcorn and watch the show. It's gonna get ugly.